Forced Talent

[Vile]

I have a question, and I do plan on trying it out. First off, this has nothing to do with what I talked about in the rape thread.

With that said

Is it possible to force talent? Could an average artist. Say, practice for hours a week- and if they did, how fast could her skills improve? Does this work for all talents?

What about singing? Could she push herself to sing beautifully, even if she once sounded like a vulture? Or writing- after subjecting herself to endless amounts of study and criticism, could she improve to a novelist's standards?

Is this answer just maybe? Has anyone tried this? Or is it just luck of the draw?

[Rory Storm]

I suppose. I mean if you can forget how to do something after a while, could that not happen in the reverse? If you practice for hours at a time, could you get better. Sure. Look at athletes. They start from little kids, and work their way up. If you allow a certain whatever to consume your mind and you try at it, you may improve. That is, so long, as you push youself to the standards set and levels that need to be reached. But remember: It's harder to teach an old new tricks.

[töm]

Call me stupid, or an optomist, but I have a great deal of hope in every person. You can do what you want.

That being said, of course some talents are God-given. Being tall, for example. Also, I think a good singing voice and things like that. That sort of thing you need. Of course, there are techniques to make you sing <i>better</i>, but if one has an awful voice to begin with, I don't think anyone's going to get to be "beautiful." So some are built in, but others...

If you can put two hands in front of you, palms facing upwards, and move them up and down, you can juggle. No question asked. Now, how many people can juggle in real life? Not <i>everyone</i>. Because they don't try. Or they <i>think</i> that they can't do it. But, you know what? Give it a week, and anyone with basic motor skills can juggle. I think that this stands true for most talents. Give it time.

Of course, the talent may seem a little stiff at first, if not "natural" or God-given. But with time, it I think anyone can do anything. It's just time, and stick-to-it-iveness.


People just trick themselves into thinking that they can't do things. That's the extent to one's "lack of talent." It's a mental thing.

That's what I think.

[Davey Rootbeer]

I'd say it's possible to force talent to an extent. I wish to keep as simple as possible, without falling into that whole "nature vs nurture" here, but my example would be Pete Rose.

No natural talent whatsoever for playing baseball. But he practiced every day for something like, 10 hours a day as a kid. and became a baseball player.

One could use the argument that "forcing" talent isn't creating something out of nothing: it serves as an enhancer. you build on the raw talent you already have, and refine skills. by maximizing one's exposure to the area one has talent in, one can learn and build on it.

But somethings that require talent can't be made better by practice. Creativity, for example, isn't something that can be forced. and talents that require much creativity sometimes detract if you exercise them more. For me, it's that way with writing. The more i write, the less and less creative my writings i get. that's why i don't write every day, or ever week, or even every month.

That's why authors generally take years to write a novel: they don't just write all day, 365 days a year: they write, and then they take a break from it, and do other things, until the creativity builds up again.


Talents that don't require creativity, like playing sports, are bettered by practicing: to an extent. The more you shoot baskets, the better you get at it. Unless you are center for the miami heat, then it's fairly hopeless.

going back to the first thing i said, you have to have SOME talent in something for practice to work. it's possible to surround yourself with classical music and practice playing the clarinet for hours and hours every day, but if you don't have any coordination or if you are tone deaf, then you really don't stand a chance of improving.

Having said that, in certain cases, if one stops practicing something, one might lose that talent. this is especially, true, again, for talents which do not involve creativity. however, there's some things that one can retain talent in, and even with a lack of practice.

I'm joining a bowling league tonight, and trying out my talent again for the first time (regularly) in nearly four years. I guess i'll have to see which way it goes.

[tater]

Yes, I believe it is possible to "create" talent. I don't know if it applies to all fields because I don't have experience in all fields. However, from wht I have seen it is possible in at least a few.

Art -- yes. There is no such thing as a best artist. One can always improve. Whether it is through classes to learn new techniques, learning a new medium or simply practicing skills you already know.

Singing -- yes. This is harder and you REALLY have to want it. You can improve your range, tone and voice quality with the proper training. My grandfather absolutely loves to sing. He is one of the most tone deaf people on the planet. Seriously, he used to threathen to sing in order to get people out of bed in the morning and it always worked. He still sings to his hearts content. He has actually improved over the years and his voice is far from beautiful, but at least it doesn't make you want to jump out the nearest window anymore.

Writing -- hell yes. It is definilty possible to improve your writing skills by taking a good writing class. Even great writers have their faults.

A saying comes to mind "you can always be better than you are". I've found that it's not so much what your talents are than it is what you enjoy doing. If you can enjoy it, then it'll be a natural extension to get better at it.

[Chakan]

I definitely agree with what others have brought up in this thread. You can in fact improve any skill you wish to, as long as you have the drive, patience, and time to do so. I mean, I couldn't even understand programming languages just a few years ago, but now I am familiar with Basic, and I can read the syntax of languages like C or HTML. The skills or ability to program does not come naturally(although you could argue the basic mentality for engineering or programming type tasks are), so I had to gradually learn, practice, and simply study the material that is available out there to be able to do what I can now. I'm still a long way from where I would like to be, but I know I can get there if I try. Another ability of mine, the ability to draw, came fairly naturally for me at a young age, but I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did if I didn't try to get better or improve my skills and take classes to understand the basic styles, skills, and mentality associated with drawing and art related subjects.

Whenever I get into a discussion like this with a friend of mine, he always says, "Mind over matter." As cliche as that saying is, it's true. The fear or thought of not being able to get better or even do something is the only thing that holds you back. The mind is a very powerful barrier, but once you start something new, and really try to do it, it starts to become more natural. It's never easy, even with those with "born" talent, but if it's something you really want, it's worth it. It just takes time and patience. Remember, everybody starts with the same skills ingrained into them, it's how you use them that counts.

[Magenta]

Talent, I believe, is the ability for your mind to perceive minute details subconciously making you naturally do something better than another person. Some people have musical talent because they "naturally" hear intonation better. Some people have "natural" artistic talent.

I'm not going to argue about where talent comes from - I personally believe it's thousands of facets of your childhood and upbringing - but it makes it much easier for you to develope skills in a certain area much easier than others.

Is it impossible to surpass someone in skills, although they may have more talent? Yes. I'll bring my own life into this. I play clarinet. Because of very musical parents (one very musical, one who was in chorus and such) I have a natural ear and have "talent". However, there is another girl in my band who clarinet NEVER came easy to her. She had to practice everything for hours and hours on end.

Do you know what? She's sitting a higher chair than me. She fought past the obsticles in her way and managed to play better than me, even though clarinet comes much easier to me.

So yes, with repetition, practice, criticism, and all sorts of that jazz, one can surpass the talented with their own manufactured skills.[/rant]

[AngryGoatFace]

I have a question, and I do plan on trying it out. First off, this has nothing to do with what I talked about in the rape thread.

With that said

Is it possible to force talent? Could an average artist. Say, practice for hours a week- and if they did, how fast could her skills improve? Does this work for all talents?

What about singing? Could she push herself to sing beautifully, even if she once sounded like a vulture? Or writing- after subjecting herself to endless amounts of study and criticism, could she improve to a novelist's standards?

Is this answer just maybe? Has anyone tried this? Or is it just luck of the draw?

<font face="Trebuchet MS">yup, it's very possible. know how your parents said "you can be anything you want to if you just try"? they were right. i spent two weeks training myself how to sing and i got good. really good. last year i was a soloist in what the school calls the "select chorus". if you are looking to learn how to sing, just listen to some songs that you really like, and try to sing to them a lot. keep some water near. worked for me. =P.</font>

[SLUM WIZZARD]

I've forced myself from drawing like shit to drawing slightly better than shit, so I suppose it can work for anyone.

It's all about the practice, really. Do it more, realize what you're fucking up, fix what you're fucking up, and keep the cycle going untill you have a damned good idea of what you're doing.

...

I just noticed I'm wearing 3 bracelets on my hand.
What the fuck, guys.

[Magenta]

if you are looking to learn how to sing, just listen to some songs that you really like, and try to sing to them a lot. keep some water near. worked for me. =P.
And avoid dairy and carbonated beverages right before singing.

(I had a chorus teacher who FORBADE me to drink milk or eat cheese for 24 hours before a recital...tiny bit over the top, but probably a good idea)

[cyberen]

I think it's possible, I mean, if you wanna know what it feels like to be forced to do something unpleasant but useful, go to school.

[MST3Kakalina]

i guess i'm just a little more pessimistic than the rest of you guys.

i think that some amount of natural talent is necessary to be REALLY good at...anything. if you suck at singing, but you love to sing and practice a lot, the natural talent could be work ethic or your love for singing.

i don't think everyone has the potential to do everything. i think saying so devalues what natural talent is worth, and i think it also devalues what the activity is "worth," so to speak. for example, saying that ANYONE can be a great artist detracts from the respectabliity of people who ARE great artists.

and let's face it, some people just won't ever be that good at anything. like me!

[Urchin]

Yeah, I think there is a point where talent really kicks in. That isn't to say that you can't get past a certain point on skill and practice alone, but raw talent is that extra "umph". I'll take myself as an example for the sake of simplicity. Basically, I woke up one day and found that I drew better than the rest of the kids in my class. (This was when I was six or so, by the way.) I still have the first picture of Sonic I ever drew at age six, and I can still say that it's a lot better than the stuff that 12-13 year olds crank out. I'd love to draw, of course, and would draw constantly, but I didn't really put a super effort into it. It just came out naturally. I got used to getting awards when I didn't really do anything.

The thing is, talent will only get you so far. I really cut back on drawing this year and wasted time on WoW, whereas my best friend, who's also very talented and used to be on par with me, went to art class for hours every day. My skill didn't quite deteriorate, but it didn't get any better; she made a HUGE improvement. The result? She was accepted into CalArts and I was put on the waitlist, and she got a bunch of awards and I got none. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you can't practice and gain skill at what you natually have a knack for.

As for actually forcing skill? It's probably possible for someone with a lot of talent to work very little be on the same level as someone with no talent but worked for hours every day... it's just that the talented person, when putting effort into something, will probably blow the practicing person out of the water. I guess it's more about the time it takes to get to a certain point, more or less.

[Davey Rootbeer]

follow up on the last part of my post:

163, 210, 188. first official week average of 187.

after about 3 1/2 years of not bowling in leagues, and only about 4-5 times a year, my average seems to have jumped about 15 pins from the last league i was in.

Yeah, i'm confused, too. hope it's not a fluke.

[Magenta]

i don't think everyone has the potential to do everything. i think saying so devalues what natural talent is worth, and i think it also devalues what the activity is "worth," so to speak. for example, saying that ANYONE can be a great artist detracts from the respectabliity of people who ARE great artists.
I understand this. The girl in my clarinet section? From my story up there?

Yeah, we both started in fifth grade, and for four years she was ALWAYS sitting below me, while I was always near the top of the section. Now, I'm still in the top band in our high school, but I've been sitting around 7th (last) chair for three years.

The difference between talent and skill, I think, is that talent helps you do something very artistically, while skill allows you to do something precisely. In auditions, she can play every single note EXACTLY, while I play things a little...less accurate, but with more feeling.

An artist who is NATURALLY an artist will always provide better art because they are able to convey that FEELING on the canvas (which is the entire POINT of art). Artists with fabricated skills will be able to mimick those feelings, and draw with exactness, but it would be harder for them to convey an inner feeling on that canvas.

Natural artists, although their drawings may not be "precise", will better be able to convey emotion.

[Forever Finite]

i just wanted to add my little bit. i agree with what everyone said, regardless of possible contradiction. i don't think anybody <I>really</i> know the answer, and it's a pretty relative question anyway.

that said, i believe that "talent" may or may not mean that something comes to a person more naturally than others. i believe that talent has more to do with what you are naturally interested in and drawn to. and if you're drawn to tapping rhythms on desks when you're reading or waiting or otherwise sitting idly, then after a while you will very likely become good at it! and maybe you've subconsciously taught yourself the baisic skills of a percussionist. or whatever.

i am not going to deny that every now and then somebody seems to truly have "been born to do" something, but i personally think that is quite rare. for example, i come from a family of highly creative people. every ancestor up to my great grandparents (as far as i know) have been writers or worked with language. none of them were actual visual artists, but they were all very good at it. my father was a landscaper (who apparently was quite good because his plans were drawn out so well) and my mom almost went into graphic design. blah blah blah, etc. but i know for a fact that none of them were really BORN knowing all that shit, they were simply very prone to enjoy reading and learning languages and doodling or playing with colors.

so, i guess my answer is that it's not possible to force talent because if you want to do something that badly, you're most likely interested in it. if you're interested, then you'll do it and like doing it and improve. whether or not you become "better" than others at it doesn't matter. it's not about comparison. what is good for one person might be mediocre for the other, depending on their mental and physical prowess.

[AngryGoatFace]

<font face="Trebuchet MS">oh and it works for counter-strike too. when I started i was horrible, but I became addicted to it. now I rock at it. anyone want to play me? CS name is Ape Man.</font>

[Vile]

That's all well and good, Uchan, but I mean can talent be developed? Not skill, TALENT.

I used to have it.

[pussycat]

I've seen and experienced talent come and go. plus I think effort and natural talent go hand in hand. natural talent = encouragement to do better. I think what you do heavily reflects how other people have responded to what you had originally.

[J.T. Wasabi]

Rachel, I am your father!

[~VeronicaBlack~]

Talent is a learning thing but alot of it has to do with the dominant side of the brain and whats already there, and such like that. Yes you can get better at things if you try hard enough. Like how clumsy five year olds are forced to play a recorder by the school system, some children like it and practice hard and become proficient in it and move on to other instruments. Yes they can play and belt out a melody but unless some base form of talent is already there ingrained in the brain they arent going to become a juliard progidy. The ones who do outshine others have something there lodged in the absract half of the brain that makes everything fit together easier for them. Its the same as drawing. I'm not gonna say im the greatest artist ever but when I've given people the tattoo flash that they ask me to design for them I've been asked how I can create such well drawn pictures, and I cant come up with a response. Its not that I practice drawing day and night and force myself to put all the lines together to make a picture. Its just I can see in my mind where they should fall and the hand follows. talent is more of a natural thing than a forced thing. People who practice more than they live a life can throw something together that is sort of like talent but those are usually the third place winners in contests, but third place is better than no place at all.