dear human race: when did you stop trying?

[töm]

We don't do nice things anymore, do we?

We don't make nice architecture, we don't enjoy nice music, we don't say "thank you" and "you're welcome" (well, we don't need to think about saying the latter, since there is no "thank you" prompt), we don't make nice literature, or cinema, or...

The world is no longer romantic.

And I <i>like</i> romance. So why did we give it all up?


I was at the New York Botanical Gardens last sunday, taking a lovely promenade, when I happened to discover that there was an exhibit on Greenhouses throughout the ages. I checked it out. What wonder! Gigantic, beautiful structures of glass. People all dolled up just to visit them. The dress! The architecture! Even the antique books that this was all printed on... It was just wonderful. Oh, what a world.

I like castles. I like giant Victorian glasshouses. I don't like personality-less office buidlings that do nothing but reflect images of other personality-less office buildings, and their adjoining advertisements.


Women used to go wild for Chopin and Liszt, the way girls go wild for their favorite "diva" or "boy band" of today. What is the difference? Those two men were virtuosi. They had talent, and utilized in such a way that benefited mankind! The latter; why their business is only business. Songs that are written by middle aged men in personality-less office buildings, with charts and graphs telling them just exactly what the people want. A score of even a mediocre romantic composer is still so genius compared to what anyone dares to make nowadays. And black people: when did you give up on soulful and virtuosic blues and jazz and decide to degenerate into the hateful and simplistic rap that we have on our hands today? White people: when did you start to think that it was acceptable to write a song using entirely powerchords? Okay, not everyone can be a brilliant musician.


When you read a book, you used to have to be able to pick up on a thing or two. Or five things on every page. Or more. You'd have to understand that metaphor, comprehend that symbolism, catch that Biblical or Classical allusion. And today? Well. Hell if I know.


When did we give up on... everything?

What are some things that you like that once existed that exist no longer in the world of today? Tell me.

[Vile]

appreciation.

[the Worms]

Not everyone was a virutoso back in the day. There are more modern composers now who make what I think is even greater music than in the older times. Beethoven is to Stravinsky what Newton is to Einstein. Besides, there was folk music back then, which is every bit as simplistic as current pop music. Castles and cathedrals, though big and pretty, were also incredibly expensive and cost many lives. Not all castles were sightly, just as not all skyscrapers are unsightly. You must not have been to Barcelona. If you had, you would realize that the Sagrada Familia is perhaps one of the greatest cathedrals of all time... and it is still being built. There can no longer be a Rome in which all the fantastic stuff congregates, because it would take a Roman empire (or a Church-empire) to create such a city. And even in the old days, outside of Rome, it was not common to see architectural wonders. You're the one who has given up on romance, tom, not the world. Once you start thinking that things were better in the old days, your eyes will no longer shine the way they used to. Things were different, not more beautiful.

[RCCC]

When did we give up on... everything?

What are some things that you like that once existed that exist no longer in the world of today? Tell me.

Tradition

I am the only person in my household that actually sits at the dinner table, most families I see don't even do things like that any more. They are making eating TV dinners in front of the Television the new traditon. They are making comercial products the new Christmas. I think Christmas and that stuff should be a time to get to be with your family, but people are believing Christmas is something else. And my list continues but I don't feel like typing it.

[Meat Load]

The Soviet Union.

Seriously, I thought we had a pretty sweet deal going with that "Cold War" business.

[exemplary citizen]

We don't make nice architecture
But... but...

<img src=http://photos2.flickr.com/1628471_b5b71461ad.jpg>

?

[Davey Rootbeer]

I'm willing to bet cash money that in about 500 years, someone named "Tæm" will telepathically send a message to a group of his friends about how there's no good music, architecture, polite people, or romanticism in the modern world, and they wish they could go back to that age and live there.

Psychologically, there's always an urge to break free of the mundane, and when exposed to the highlights of pother methods of life, other cultures, and other times, we tend to overlook the obvious downfalls and perils of that type of society, and wish only the collective ambiance upon ourselves.

Namely, we are so attracted to it as an escape from our own time/place/way of life, that we look at our own society with disdain and become completely engrossed in the cultural aspects of another society *coughJapanophilescough*.

You don't want to live 500 years ago. You just want to observe the ambiance that you associate with living at that time. That's what video games are for.

Go play some Final Fantasy.

[cyberen]

I agree with Davey. Sure the architecture was nice back then, but I'm sure they'd burn me at the stake for being atheist.

[exemplary citizen]

Guys, I don't think he's referring to the dark ages. More like Victorian-era fascination.

T&ouml;m, I'd totally time travel with you, but only if I could be a top heat wearing, be-monacled gentleman. Because, let's face it; it really sucked to have a vagina back then. :(

[MST3Kakalina]

i'm all for the roaring 20s, myself.


but that's because i'm a huge nostalgia whore.

[töm]

I'm not stating that quality of live was just as wonderful back then. Sure, we have advanced in many jolly good ways in terms of science, education, and general widening of one's mind, but through all of this, we've also lost something special and distinctly human, in favor of a more bland, soul-less kind of style.

i guess that's not surprising, though. that agrees with pretty much every theory out there. the more science, the less magic. the more discovery, the less mystery.But... but...

<img src=http://photos2.flickr.com/1628471_b5b71461ad.jpg>

?i'm sorry, but that's just the kind of bullshit i'm talking about. :( angular, cold, and sterile.

[exemplary citizen]

BOSH. You just cannot connect with Frank Gehry's vision.

His vision which overheats nearby buildings to the point of window breakage and had to be re-skinned two years ago.

[the Worms]

Sagrada Familia: A synthesis of modern and classic.

http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/Spain/Barcelona/Sagrada-familia.jpg

http://www.spain-holiday.com/spain-travel-information-photos/p_61_La-Sagrada-Familia-barcelon.jpg

http://www.lemonpage.de/Barcelona%20Sagrada/Barcelona%20Sagrada%20Familia%20vorn%20nah.jpg

http://www-cdr.stanford.edu/~wgriffin/photoAlbums/EuropeTrip_10_02/Barcelona%20Spain/images/020%20-%20Sagrada%20Familia.jpg

The inside looks like this:

http://www.sepal.org/gulick/graphics/gaudi-sagrada-familia_bg.jpg


By the way, Irken Dictator, tradition is not dying; it is changing. An unchanging tradition is a dead tradition, because then it is nothing more than lip-service. If you're the only one who eats dinner at the table, what's the point? You're pretending something is there that is not (viz. other people). If the old tradition is defunct, let it rest; it is time for a new one. The pieces of the old will live on in the new. We cannot escape tradition, memory won't let us, so don't worry about it, because it hides in places you won't even realize it exists. Language is a tradition, for example.

[MST3Kakalina]

i don't think it's not changing that kills tradition, it's lack of connection. when you cease to feel connected to some kind of tradition (say, taking communion), you tend to cease practicing it. either that or you just go on pretending for the sake of others around you. it's not because the tradition hasn't morphed into something shiny and new.

whatever, you'll probably prove me wrong, because i'm a fucking blathering idiot. ignore me.

[töm]

see, that's rather beautiful, that cathedral there. but how often do we see such things? i like european cityscapes a lot, seeing as some have managed to maintain a more oldworld feel. it's just more comfy, and more personal. the only time i feel that way where i live is on a drive out into the country. seeing those beautiful farmhouses and victorians. it gives me a feeling that i can't describe. it's just... a comfort. a calling. the sense that they were created by the hands of a craftsman, and not the various steel appendages of a robotic octopus in a factory somewhere north of cincinnati.

[robot]

silly

[implode]

i have not given up on romance.

er. i'm kind of ashamed that that's all i have to say. maybe after i double my week's worth of sleep in one to-night.

[Davey Rootbeer]

you sure wear your heart on your sleeve, man.


and then sometimes around your neck...




Humanity seems to hjave this amazing ability to recreate.

So, nothing is every truly dead. just passe for now.




..it'll all come back, some day. Just like bell-bottoms, and flip-flops.

[exemplary citizen]

Yeah, but.... it never went away. For some of us. :(

[töm]

i'm going to bring back derigibles.

then you'll all pay.

all of you. :mad:

[Meat Load]

One word.

Hindenburg.

[exemplary citizen]

Well, it'll be just dandy fine if you don't fill it with volatile, explosive fucking gasses. That's all.

[töm]

i'm also going to fill it with shrapnel.

it. uhm. it's for good luck.

[robot]

Its all my fault.

[strawberry kiss]

I want a demonstration that gets something done.

Or maybe a good ole riot. (even though I'm scared to death of them. as long as they happen somewhere else.)

[Shiv]

This is the kinda talk that makes me really sad at first and then really happy and contented.

It makes me sad because I'm not a victim of false nostalgia that seems to have consumed dear Tom and when I see someone who is I feel sorry for them. Then it reminds me how magical the world is. Who back there said 'more science less magic'? Folly! Folly I say. How does knowing how to cast a spell lessen the wonder of it, if anything, understanding magic should increase the wonder. Science and magic have always been the same thing to me, put in different concepts, and the only science that is steril and soulless is that false faith that's been built around real science. Real science is nature, and discovering how it works and more, how to manipulate it, how to bend it to our will. The world is full of magic, you just have to open up and look at it.

As far as architecture and culture goes, it's already been covered. Romance isn't something out there in the world, it's something you have to create and appreciate. Great literature is being written all the time, amazing contemporary artists can be found amid all the drivel that inevitibly coats a world that hasn't been filtered and polished by time. There's nothing wrong with looking back at what was always beautiful, in fact I think it's great that we can, but understand that you're looking back at something that was the best of it's time and try to see that you might not be able to find the best of our time just by flicking passed MTV and Nickelodeon ^_^

[beavo]

the diplodoes. damn, i wish they were still around.

[rocketgal]

i think that the past becomes automatically romanticised (forgive my train of thought right now, i am - many hours sleep) i would talk about all the amazing music still composed and all the fantastic architecture still dreated, but alas my brain wont let me just yet.

instead i am going to talk about the past.

humans have an amazing talent. that taent is to forget how painful things are.
i am sure back in the day or the great composers there were many MANY mediocre musicians who were all popular and irritating, much like today. but humans being humand forget the less wonderful things about a situation and focus on the good.

for example, i just did a 2 year animation course that at the time made me angrier than i had ever been in my entire life. YET. i have recommended to EVERYONE that it is the most fantastic college and course in the world, and i am also heading back for another 2 years.

why? because i only remember the goods. the bads are locked away in a time capsule never to be seen again.

edit: ROCK ON DIPLODOS!

[beavo]

damn right.

[~VeronicaBlack~]

i think that almost everyone are lazy bastards or way to pc for everything to be as it once was. cause ya know all that nice fashion and architecture stuff kinda took effort and who wants to do that, or those hand carved from granite lions for the front gate might offend some one so we cant do that.

[poopzim]

This is why some people rebel against the way things are. There are other things that contribute to the modern, dull lives we live like the government and business. Yeah we're safer because of the people who make decisions for us and control our lives by making laws and enforcing them. The technology and media lets us know each and everything that goes on every second of every day. Stories aren't read or told by someone, because we can just turn on the TV or pay $10 to see a movie.

I think a little mystery and danger is what reminds you that you're alive. I understand what töm means by romance. People used to look at the stars and come up with all kinds of reasons for their remarkable beauty and wonder. Now we look up and see big balls of gas burning in the vast darkness of space. I don't see where we're going with all this science and technology. We can keep progressing until we have discovered and built everything there is, but at what point will we be happy? Keep reaching and keep destroying... Not only is the air polluted, but so are we.

I for one like to fight it. I've had some hard times with my friends, but it's really made us stronger. Some of my friends were thrown out of the school and forgotten by their oldest of friends, but we remain brothers because we won't give up. And it's not just stupid shit like yelling at a teacher who won't let you wear a hat. I and others I know have had to run from the cops because of existing past 10 at night. You know something's wrong when you get taken in for being outside at night. Why don't they want us out in the real world at night? We're forced to stare into the night sky behind our windows, in our safe little homes.

I'm glad you brought this up.

[the Worms]

I think a little mystery and danger is what reminds you that you're alive. I understand what töm means by romance. People used to look at the stars and come up with all kinds of reasons for their remarkable beauty and wonder. Now we look up and see big balls of gas burning in the vast darkness of space.

Don't you think that that kind of mysticism is an ignorant and rather less noble kind than the one that lives now? Is it better to imagine all kinds of crazy physical theories involving gods and whatnot or to know the truth? Can't we still maintain a mystical innocence about that which we don't know? As long as we don't know something, then we can still create fantastic stories about that something. And these stories can reach out even further into romantic depths when we do know more, to conjecture better about what we don't know. It is absurd to think that ignorance is in anyway a better state.

[Davey Rootbeer]

It's a psychological complex that is associated with the "innocence" of childhood and development, a time when most of us are uneducated about such matters, and thus stretch our creativity to explain the things we don't quite know yet (and become inquisitive, and seek out answers)

our childhood is basically a very short process that mirrors the development of humans in the several million years beforehand (psychologically, anyway.). we do not question the world around us, and are merely content in surviving ( up to 4000 BC) we are content witht the answers our parents give us, until we begin to question them in our early teenage years (rennasance-out of the dark ages) and seek our own answers to questions (space age). we can make lives better now, but the sheen of creativity is somewhat dulled by the know-how and senses. (of course. it's a sacrifice i'm more than willing to make. what's the point in dying at 30 when i can live 40 years more, because i know i'm allerngic to certain things and should avoid them? If life's a coin toss at every turn, sooner or later, you'll end on your tails.)


anyway, back to my point. we all have an urge to return to the "innocence", embracing the small world that we knew, and having all the answers right there in black and white, and our parents there to protect us (which is one of the major reasons religon becomes so widely popular: the "god" is the parents, protecting and nurturing, disciplining but loving, and the rules are laid out in black and white, Do this, Do not do this, etc.)

so then...


knowledge is Power;

Ignorance is Bliss.

[poopzim]

Faith VS. Science

That's what is boils down to. I already know the harsh things that can be said from both sides... there's no right or wrong about it either. It's just a choice and it's useless to fight about it.

However, there is a way to see the magic of the world and to see things differently. I'm looking into getting a book called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812992180/ref=ase_vagabonding/103-0291914-6547823?v=glance&s=books">Vagabonding</a> by Rolf Potts. (<a href="http://vagabonding.net/excerpt/">Excerpt from chapter 1</a>). Look up his name online and you'll find a ton of different travel stories written by him.

[MST3Kakalina]

rennaissance, daveyrob. :<3:


and knowing how something works, be it stars in space or stage magic sleight of hand, doesn't make it any less enthralling. not for me, anyway. otherwise i'd have to go through life not knowing ANYTHING to be able to enjoy it.

[Squid!]

not that i don't have a deep appreciation for all things old and artsy but if you think about it, back then people were working with the tools that they had (their hands and whatnot) to create beautiful things and we're just doing the same things now. there has to be human thought behind the designs that are created through computers. you just have to learn to look for the soul and effort someone put into anything they dreamed up and made reality whether its an old cathedral or a shiny skyscraper. back in the day i'm sure those cathedrals seemed just as oppressive and heartless as some of the new architecture we have now can, just for different reasons.

Tom, i think you need to pay a visit to Wyoming where everyone is still generally friendly and considerate. We open doors for each other and everything.

[the Worms]

You fuckin' jerks. You misunderstood what I was saying.

knowledge is Power;

Ignorance is Bliss.

Wrong.

Faith VS. Science

Very wrong.

Why do you people keep imagining that science can give us all the answers? Any answer requires faith (and I don't mean 'faith in science' whatever the fuck that is). Do you know what a scientific theory is? It is a huge guess. Imagine trying rewrite an entire Shakespeare play when the only information you have about it is how much people liked it. That's similar to how we create scientific theories. They are just guesses that match what little information we have. Based on the 100% failure rate of all previous scientific theories (one is always debunked by another) I'd say it is pretty likely that we can never safely say that a scientific theory is 'true'. Bliss and power come from a delicate balance between sensory input (i.e. scientific) and ignorant guesses (i.e. faith). There is no dichotomy here. Faith and science are not contradictory, because they are both necessary if we are to even approach reality.

[Davey Rootbeer]

Uh, i wasn't responding to what you were saying, there. merely making an observation of my own, here, on my ideology on why people seem to crave the "magic" and wish to remain ignorant about how something works sometimes.

no need to get defensive, bub.

[beavo]

question, then:

would you prefer not to know how to write? how to read? i mean, if ignorance is as great as you claim it to be, why not be ignorant about everything?

or am i just being ignorant?

[rocketgal]

see that is what breeds the ricky lake audience.


it is better to be knowlegeable and avoid death on many occasions, than to just die from your own stupidity

[Shiv]

Stories aren't read or told by someone, because we can just turn on the TV or pay $10 to see a movie. You don't think directors tell a story? I think movies are an amazing tool for the most amazing story tellers to be appreciated by a huge audience. And in my personal life people are telling stories to each other all the time. Maybe it's just my group of friends, but sometimes ya can't shut them up.

Don't you think that that kind of mysticism is an ignorant and rather less noble kind than the one that lives now? Is it better to imagine all kinds of crazy physical theories involving gods and whatnot or to know the truth? Can't we still maintain a mystical innocence about that which we don't know? As long as we don't know something, then we can still create fantastic stories about that something. And these stories can reach out even further into romantic depths when we do know more, to conjecture better about what we don't know. It is absurd to think that ignorance is in anyway a better state. Absolutely. And besides, fantastical stories and theories are always much more fascinating when based in some small way on reality. Looking up into the sky and realising how small we are and how much is out there that we don't understand is romanticism. Coming up with a million theories that are no longer contrained to this world, no longer contrained to this way of thinking, how can that be less romantic than imagining the same old celestial gods of lore?

we're just doing the same things now. there has to be human thought behind the designs that are created through computers. you just have to learn to look for the soul and effort someone put into anything they dreamed up and made reality whether its an old cathedral or a shiny skyscraper. http://www.myst.com/ If anything, creating wonders on computer is less restraining. These people create whole new worlds, new realities, and they don't have to worry about planning permission or physics or any of that silly nonsense. Now that's magical. Maybe it's not quite the same for everyone, but I can get into the world of a computer game as fully as I can get into a good book or a breathtaking movie. More so since I can actually interact with these worlds.

Do you know what a scientific theory is? It is a huge guess. :D I like you

it is better to be knowlegeable and avoid death on many occasions, than to just die from your own stupidity Yum, wisdom :P Hi Claire :) Summer going well?

[implode]

We don't do nice things anymore, do we?

We don't make nice architecture, we don't enjoy nice music, we don't say "thank you" and "you're welcome" (well, we don't need to think about saying the latter, since there is no "thank you" prompt), we don't make nice literature, or cinema, or...

The world is no longer romantic.

And I <i>like</i> romance. So why did we give it all up? the world is no longer "romantic" in the sense that the word no longer applies to what you'd like it to.

what is romance to you? romance to me is the feeling of being at one with something, of pouring your heart into whatever you're doing and <i>not worrying</i> about who will like it or not, or how it might be misinterpreted. romance is the absence of any sort of fear. we inject fear into so many circumstances where it's completely unnecessary to do so - why? why are we so concerned about our own safety? what is being safe and secure if there's nothing for you to enjoy during that period of safety? fear is the negative catalyst of vitality, and love is the positive. both set you up for pain, but pain is inevitable and not something you should spend your entire life trying to avoid.

romance is looked down upon by people. everyone is always quick to offer a critique on what you have to say, and it frightens people into not sharing anything they've done to begin with. and it makes sense - romance is <i>baring your soul to the world</i>, and it's only natural to hope that they don't stand up after you're finished and say "oh... that's it? heh. okay." and walk away snickering. your "soul" is the only thing that distinguishes you in this humanity, and it really hurts to be told that your distinguishing factor is "below average." so we don't. because it's much easier to critique, to find fault in what has already been presented, instead of presenting something of your own. romance is not easy, and so many people have the means and the desire to cruise through life taking the easy way out that it's hard to even find a hopeless romantic anymore. they've all been jaded into these callous lumps of emotion that float through life not really feeling comfortable doing anything but complaining.

i write down what i think is beautiful, horrible, or simply human, and i try to find the best words i can to illustrate my point, and hope that someday it might make a difference to someone. someday, someone other than myself will share this moment of human emotion with me and it will mean something, and i will have made a difference, somehow, in the only way my undereducated slacker mind is currently capable of. but i never let it, because i lock it away in the depths of the "my documents" folder, waiting for the inevitable day that my harddrive is destroyed and i have to start from scratch, again. we all have our different outlets of releasing the inner romantic inside of us - it may be writing, composing music, drawing, telling jokes, or hell, even eating - but whatever it is, there's always 10 people to offer a "you suck, fag" to the one person who'll give you an honest review. and it's disheartening. you can KNOW that these people aren't worth your time or concern all you like, but in the end, the response you get from your peers will always shape your opinion on your own work. and what are you supposed to do then? find better peers? assume that THEY'RE the problem, not you? that's all well and good, but you can only keep on blindly ever forward before you run into another wall. and eventually the walls start to hurt, and you begin to question whether all this pain is worth it, and in the end, all you can do is reflect on how you probably failed at the task you were never really sure of what you were trying to do in the first place.

i don't think romance is about being "nice." i think romance is about being who you are, and sharing what you know, and to hell with what anyone has to say about it. and in that context, you could say that people still ARE romantic - it's just that romance has lost its luster, for the plethora of reasons that we all think we know and i have no reason to get into. when did we stop trying? when our idea of "success" came to be putting someone else down, instead of putting yourself up.


And black people: when did you give up on soulful and virtuosic blues and jazz and decide to degenerate into the hateful and simplistic rap that we have on our hands today? White people: when did you start to think that it was acceptable to write a song using entirely powerchords? Okay, not everyone can be a brilliant musician. this hurts my feelings, even with the disclaimer. :( as long as you're writing the song because you believe you have something to share with the rest of the world, it's fine with me. maybe the message isn't SUPPOSED to be that you can create beautiful music. maybe they're just using the medium as a way to introduce their thoughts in poetic form to a world that laughs at poetry. i would have understood a lot more if you had said "when did you start to think that writing a song using entirely powerchords wouldn't SUCK?" because at least then you're expressing your personal taste. saying that it "isn't okay" is downright dismissal. i don't know. i guess they're the same thing, but that hurt.


When you read a book, you used to have to be able to pick up on a thing or two. Or five things on every page. Or more. You'd have to understand that metaphor, comprehend that symbolism, catch that Biblical or Classical allusion. And today? Well. Hell if I know.


When did we give up on... everything?

What are some things that you like that once existed that exist no longer in the world of today? Tell me. this entire thread has smacked of "haughty." you just seem to be saying "things used to be so GREAT. why aren't you people great?" we're TRYING. at least, i am. and having the people who aren't ruin what i believe should be my good name just doesn't seem fair.

[rocketgal]

i think i'm pretty great

[implode]

haha. was there ever any doubt?

[rocketgal]

well no, but i figured like....i should say it

[Shiv]

*tries to be great like claire and 'plode*

I like it here. I like that so many people here are romantic enough to have challenged the opening chord of the thread, because I know that's rare. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)

[rocketgal]

even if the world around you sucks, the world you create for yourself doesnt have to.


i guess thats my motto *looks at eeerilly happy cartoons on the walls around her*

[the Worms]

Complexity doesn't equal greatness. Powerchords can be great, but one must know how to use them.

Davey, I was meaning to be playful when I wrote "you fuckin' jerks", though I suppose that that is difficult to convey in a message board.