presidents approval rating falls below 40

[cyberen]

news source (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_ap_poll)

all I can say is...

It's about freakin time!

You'd think that having thousands upon thousands of people dying in the Iraq war would have done that, but I guess the luxury that the hurricane incident didn't have is a pretense of moral superiority against the weather. Perhaps its because Bush cut the funding for the department responsible to preventing disasters like this (I can't remember the name) and gave the money to the war instead. Yes I'm sure you all know this before. My point is, Bush's lack of leadership has been evident for the past 5 years, his incompetence is undeniable to me, and it's taken this long to get to 39 percent approval.

I bet you that the terror alert level will rise or something to distract people until a more nationalistic "patriotism" story is found to drown the media in.

Please redirect me if this has been discussed in the forum before.

er...and send this page to the ontopic section. sorry, haven't posted a new topic in a while.

[Lord Koopa]

preventing disasters like this (I can't remember the name)
Hey, I want to know more about preventing hurricanes. It sounds interesting.

[cyberen]

I don't mean preventing hurricanes, I mean the department responsible for making sure response to a hurricane or other natural disaster hitting a town is quick enough to save lots of lives.

[MST3Kakalina]

consider the thread moved.

also, i found this on LiveJournal. it's public, so you should be be able to read it. please do. <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/etcet/314931.html">escape from the REAL L.A.</a>

[robot]

whoa crazy article

but i can't say i wasnt expecting it

[cyberen]

ok, Koba's article blows my little rant away. Holy shit, that's awful. If you can't expect the authorities to protect and help its own citizens...well...anarchy sounds pretty good. This is a testament to the strength of the human spirit, but also how fucked up the country has become. Jesus christ, you'd think this would happen in some third world dictatorship, but no, its right here, in the greatest friggin' country on earth. damn.

[Meat Load]

Well, look on the bright side. In about 50 years, China's going to beating our asses at virtually everything, so we won't have any reason to cover our mistakes anymore.

[Azog]

Well, look on the bright side. In about 50 years, China's going to beating our asses at virtually everything, so we won't have any reason to cover our mistakes anymore.

I say less then 50 years, more like 20. Also not just China but India too...

[dromeda779]

Hell, the entire freaking East. Korea and Japan are thisclose, and China and India aren't that far behind. Though if Nature keeps on going the way it is, we won't need to worry about China overtaking us, since all our industry will be UNDERWATER.

And Cyberen- the name is FEMA, for Federal Emergency Management Agency. Michael Chertoff's the head, I think.

[-MV- Anubis]

President Bush's Domestic policy is garbage.

But the war isn't....we should have finnished Saddam long ago...the fact alone he killed hundreds of thousands of people while we idled by is a testament to the hipocracy that consumes america and its liberal corps.

You cry when we lose 1000 soldiers, how many have we killed down there? Millions vs our 2000....but the fact you want to drop what we are doing now and run shows why america is losing its hold as the world's only superpower...that thinking leads to us becoming a 3rd rate power with a military to be trampled upon...and our economy is going down with the same mindset...we'll all be unemployed when they are done outsourcing for their #1 consumer, the american people.

The Reasons for the "war" where wrong, WMD should not have even been brought up but the people who suffered under his rule. The again we have a excellent history of the the liberal cowards bailing on our allies, IRAN, Vietnam, Korea, China - we should have finnished N. Korea when they where beat. THEY ARE ALL PROBLEMS NOW and now they are armed with nukes.

Bush's policies are garbage, but the fact he put the U.N. and our "Allies" in their place, under our finnancial heel is the right thing...we fund U.N member countries and they dare question our will when they take our handouts....the fact we threatened them with revoking our cash supply which those countries desperately need but refuse to support our actions is the right thing....The US controls the world...I'd like to see us unify the world under one banner one day, but unfortunatley that will not be the case.

And to me loss of life is little consequence when the world is already overpopulated...

The death of one man is a tragedy, The death of millions is a statistic. - Josef Stalin

You could learn alot from JS...

After katrina people reverted into animals which led to madness....we should have put them out of their misery...mankind is nothing more than a engine self destruction...FEMA was a failure, it shows the government is incompetant, why didnt everyone help eachother out in New Orleans? Because they are nothing short of animals....distrusting, disgusting animals...they left eachother to die because they only cared about themsleves.

These deaths are nothing more to me than a statistic.

[-MV- Anubis]

Once again I scare off my debators..... :(

[Shaman King]

No, you bumped a really old thread that no one was interested in anymore. You also overused ellipses and "Check me out, I'm badass and don't like people!" shock phrases. Combine this with being kinda off the topic of the thread, and you get zero replies (at least within 24 hours).

[MST3Kakalina]

yeah, fucking thread necro like whoa. and you just have a shitty attitude. it's assholes like you that make me ashamed to be american.

[-MV- Anubis]

Im so mean. Whoopie. It is the truth...America always runs from its problems until it ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam (we ran from that even though we WHERE winning.) Those all had to be do or die before we got involved...and when we do get involved, its either stopped by the american people whimpering out, or we actually got the job done...ww1 and ww2 we needed to fight those wars but we had that same stance the whole time of "We won't get involved" but then it became apparent that the allies just might lose without us and we got attacked by the japanese...we got involved after 2500 brave sailors had to die.

Which is why North Korea is a threat with nuclear weapons now...rather than being wiped out in the 50s and a part of a new south-er unified korea.

I mean what I say is the truth. Its depressing? YES. Do people have to die? Now they do...for bullshit that we didn't address in the past. We let madmen kill millions of people, people turn a blind eye to all the canrage and madness that surrounds this world because they don't want to face the truth...you don't want to face the truth.

Famine, War, Unrest...all of the world's problems would be solved if the world's people faced those problems straightforwardly and just addressed them Wisconsin and Iowa alone can have enough dairy to feed the world, we have mountains of powdered milk we could give to famished countries...its not until we get hit by a hurricane another 9/11 and 200,000 people have to die before it gets news attention THEN we have to act. Because we want to sit all snuggly in our fortress america, paranoid of everyone else and oooohhh "TERROR" we are going to let millions of people die for nothing but our peice of mind.

1 aircraft carrier and a few divisions of marines would end the drug trade for good ending all the shitheads we get over here in America.

Im a asshole? Im telling you the truth as I see it...I could careless that this topic was dead because quite frankly, everyone here (save for me) is a democract, and I had to play opposition...its out of principal that I do so.

I get in trouble for dancing around "Contreversial Subjects" such as these, and people cry all the time about it...the fact for the matter is Im usually right...no matter how cruel, how cold, how mean I sound, most of the damn time I am right...If I am completely wrong I would be glad!

I love people, I have tons and tons tons of friends, Hell, I have a party everyday! But Politics, now...this is fun...and I love to get reactions out of people.

Oh well im done.

[robot]

You guys dont know what youre talking about. President Bush is doing a damn good job washing the windows if you know what I mean. I mean, look at the Clintonlithic Era. He was all about "Sunday was the day of rest" blah blah I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. WELL GUESS WHAT I DO I mean, if intelligente design is so god damn importan then get out of her MUCHOOCHOO. THATS FAG IN SPANGLISH. WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THat

[robot]

This is what i have to say about the current election status, and the current president...

PORTUGUESE PROFESSOR PRESENTS ALTERNATIVE TO DEPLETED URANIUM THEORY

Professor Sobrinho Simoes, President of the Portuguese Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology, stated yesterday that it is important to verify what type of leukaemia the NATO soldiers in Kosovo suffer from, since different agents cause different types of leukaemia and although depleted uranium might be responsible, the cause could be another.
He stated that uranium causes a particular type of leukaemia but there are many other agents, such as electro-magnetic radiation, Benzene, dioxins and other polluting agents, which could have come into contact with NATO soldiers in the Balkans.
Another important issue raised by this professor was that uranium indeed causes cancer, but usually many years after contact and not so immediately as seems to be the case in Kosovo.
Whatever the case, it is obvious that if depleted uranium did not cause the Balkans Syndrome, something else did. The question is, what ? NATO indeed has always claimed that depleted uranium is safe but all the circumstantial evidence indicates the contrary. In fact, in a court of law, the case against NATO would seem to be at least as strong as the case defending the organisation. At least…
One has only to read the pages of Pravda.Ru in recent months to find a wealth of hard, scientific facts, backed up with firm documented evidence, which indicate that there is indeed a link between depleted uranium and illness. Everyone would be extremely happy to find out that in fact depleted uranium is harmless and that the soldiers and civilians affected by Gulf War Syndrome and Balkans Syndrome were just pretending or lying. It would also be nice to hear that the reported cases of malformation and disease among Iraqi children are mere figments of the imagination and that the incidence of leukaemia among soldiers who were stationed in the Balkans are no higher than the average. It would please us all to discover that the deaths of numerous civilians in Iraq and Bosnia from cancerous illnesses were fabrications and that in fact they died of other causes. Everyone, everywhere wants to win the lottery…
The point is that the international press, in which Pravda.Ru assumes its position fully with all due responsibility and total journalistic integrity, has the responsibility to inform the public about what is happening. This is done not out of spite or hatred but due to a duty, a responsibility, exercised at times with extreme sadness and reticence but always exercised from the point of view of what is right, just and true, which attempts to follow the currents of the modern world at any given time in history.
At a time when the world is finally becoming a global village, when black and white is no longer an issue, where the concern for human integrity is the basis of practically all global policies, it does not make sense for a pressure group of countries with an inflated and obese idea of their own importance to go globe-trotting on a spree of destruction. Such behaviour these days has a destiny and one destiny only: the International Penal Court of the Hague and the charges are War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity.

TIMOTHY BANCROFT-HINCHEY
PRAVDA.RU
LISBON

[RCCC]

I actually agree with -MV- Anubis. I also think war is necessary evil. So basically I approve of this war, as long as it doesn't go into nuclear warfare everything is okay with it.

[-MV- Anubis]

Uranium is dangerous in itself...so is VX nerve gas...

So you know about the DU rounds in Iraq. Your more informed than I would think.

The fact that russia where your getting your information, put the world in this position for these horrible weapons to exist...infact, they had the most widespread Nuclear and Biological and chemical weapons development programs the world has ever seen..and now the scientists and professors who preach this garbage...

Are also selling their services to the highest bidder.

Pakistan, China, India, (LETS NOT FORGET N KOREA!!!) all got their "how to make a nuke" information from russia.

Yes, soldiers are dying, The fact that we have to do this now, alot of it has to stem from russia's paranoia...and in turn the united states own paranoia...

People dont need to die...but you let them...they let themselves.

Global village? That my friend is nothing more than a powderkeg...a world without a need for borders is what the world needs..with one government..with one army...none of these countries can lead the world...because no one is willing to fight for humanity...only their own wallet..or their own ass.

Rawanda (everyone sat back and watched people hack eachother to death with machetes while U.N troops watched), Kosovo (no one but america got involved...cowards.), Sudan.....

As long as there are borders as long as there are skin colors...as long as there are religions.....there is reasons for a war

[587]

It's only a matter of time now.

[the Worms]

Anubis, you need to be responded to.

Im so mean. Whoopie. It is the truth...America always runs from its problems until it ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam (we ran from that even though we WHERE winning.) Those all had to be do or die before we got involved...and when we do get involved, its either stopped by the american people whimpering out, or we actually got the job done...ww1 and ww2 we needed to fight those wars but we had that same stance the whole time of "We won't get involved" but then it became apparent that the allies just might lose without us and we got attacked by the japanese...we got involved after 2500 brave sailors had to die.

Are you saying that the entire world is America's problem? How is it not everyone else's problem? So then every war should be a world war, because if there is a battle, you must pick a side and fight. This absurdity is where your reasoning would end up. None of those four wars began with America avoiding its own problems. They began with America believing in either survival (ww1, ww2) or democracy (korea, vietnam). Soldiers dying in battle does not necessarily make them brave, so don't try to use tear-jerking language: that is the ploy of a person whose argument does not stand on its own ground.

Which is why North Korea is a threat with nuclear weapons now...rather than being wiped out in the 50s and a part of a new south-er unified korea.

North Korea and Vietnam were incompleted wars because the American people weren't convinced that it was right to take the side of the democratic country just because it is democratic. In other words, the equation of good with democracy was becoming insecure.

Famine, War, Unrest...all of the world's problems would be solved if the world's people faced those problems straightforwardly and just addressed them Wisconsin and Iowa alone can have enough dairy to feed the world, we have mountains of powdered milk we could give to famished countries...its not until we get hit by a hurricane another 9/11 and 200,000 people have to die before it gets news attention THEN we have to act. Because we want to sit all snuggly in our fortress america, paranoid of everyone else and oooohhh "TERROR" we are going to let millions of people die for nothing but our peice of mind.

Believe it or not, but you do no have all the information. Situations are more dynamic than you think. The world cannot be reduced as simply as you have tried to reduce it. Consider actions that no president has ever taken. Why do you think that is so? Why do you think that what seems most obvious to you never happens? The probable cause is that it is entirely impossible, but you just don't know it yet.

1 aircraft carrier and a few divisions of marines would end the drug trade for good ending all the shitheads we get over here in America.

Do you not understand the moral dilemma that this presents? Can we be sure that such a thing is not an atrocity? Will it really bring the greater good? Will it solve the fundamental problem presented by drug trade? I am not sure about the first questions, but I am sure that the answer to the last question is "no," because drug trade is proportional to demand for drugs. Even if you killed those currently trading, the business would build back up, but more subtly and less susceptibly than before. You will have made things worse.

Im a asshole? Im telling you the truth as I see it...I could careless that this topic was dead because quite frankly, everyone here (save for me) is a democract, and I had to play opposition...its out of principal that I do so.

You're a fool on top of being an asshole. Everyone here is not a democrat. There are plenty of socialists here; besides, the word "democrat" no longer means what it used to. No one believes in governmental forms in their purity anymore. Furthermore, a position of democracy on matters democratic is not in any way problematic. In refering to Leninist Marxism, you take the argument out of its context: America is not Marxist, it is democratic, and the concerns of Soviet Russia have no effect on present-day America.

Lastly, your arguments don't even really take a true stand except a negative one. You don't have a position except to be a critic, and vacuous critics are the most destructive leeches on society. If you are going to destroy the status quo, you first need an alternative

And the phrase "truth as I see it" makes no sense. That just means that you are giving an opinion, which is not truth.

Learn argumentative tactics before you try to start an argument.

I also think war is necessary evil. So basically I approve of this war, as long as it doesn't go into nuclear warfare everything is okay with it.

The second statement does not logically follow the first. What is a "necessary evil"? And how does this war fall into that category? Few people claim that war is never necessary, and even if they do let's pretend they don't, for the sake of this argument. The issue at stake is most think that this war is unnecessary. Furthermore, the necessity of war does not completely withdraw the restrictions of war.

EDIT: Major structural and argumentative changes. I know I don't usually do that, but I needed to this time.

[exemplary citizen]

Do you not understand the moral dilemma that this presents? Can we be sure that such a thing is not an atrocity? Will it really bring the greater good? Will it solve the fundamental problem presented by drug trade? I am not sure about the first questions, but I am sure that the answer to the last question is "no," because drug trade is proportional to demand for drugs. Even if you killed those currently trading, the business would build back up, but more subtly and less susceptibly than before. You will have made things worse.
Not to mention that the deadliest classes of illicit drugs (with the most rapidly growing user base, to boot) are most often made right here in the good ole' US of A, in some poor schmoe's trailer home, right out of household chemicals and cold medicine. Try solving that growing epidemic with your aircraft carrier, Anubis.

I mean, jesus, do you read at all?

edit: oh wow, man. nice attempt at a save. it's like he never said anything at all, except for the people in their right mind that quoted.

[the Worms]

I have decided that I am not done with you, Anubis.

But the war isn't....we should have finnished Saddam long ago...the fact alone he killed hundreds of thousands of people while we idled by is a testament to the hipocracy that consumes america and its liberal corps.

Complacency may not be a virtue, but it is only an absolute vice under certain circumstances. The situation with Saddam involved the familiar dualistic pull: it is natural to want to beat up bullies, but beating up bullies puts yourself in a position of omniscience which is inappropriate. America has not been nominated the world police and can never be the world police unless it has a higher authority. That is, so long as America polices other autonomous countries, it is exceeding the boundaries of its authority and is flirting with being a bully itself. Other autonomous nations have not granted America status as world-police, and will not grant America status as world-police until a) the world is united or b) other nations have a legitimate check upon American police policy. Obviously, neither is the case de facto.

By the way, don't use words like "liberal" if you aren't going to at least hint at a definition. Your usage here is empty and therefore pointless.

You cry when we lose 1000 soldiers, how many have we killed down there? Millions vs our 2000....but the fact you want to drop what we are doing now and run shows why america is losing its hold as the world's only superpower

The lament is for the fact that this war looks and feels like a half-assed attempt; just like Vietnam; just like Korea (as you pointed out). People's hearts aren't in it because the conviction that it is the right thing to do is faltering, and for good reason (see my comments above).

that thinking leads to us becoming a 3rd rate power with a military to be trampled upon...and our economy is going down with the same mindset...we'll all be unemployed when they are done outsourcing for their #1 consumer, the american people.

First, is a superpower the answer to the world's problems? Doesn't this defeat the concept of democracy? Democracy is the rule of the people, but isn't it just as tyrannical for the people of one nation to rule the rest of the world? If the goal is to convert the world to democracy, we must be careful not to destroy democracy in the process. If that is not the goal, then we must stop acting like it is.

Bush's policies are garbage, but the fact he put the U.N. and our "Allies" in their place, under our finnancial heel is the right thing...we fund U.N member countries and they dare question our will when they take our handouts....the fact we threatened them with revoking our cash supply which those countries desperately need but refuse to support our actions is the right thing....The US controls the world...I'd like to see us unify the world under one banner one day, but unfortunatley that will not be the case.

This undemocratic attitude defeats the political structure of both the UN and the US. The UN is an unhypocritical attempt at democracy, unlike the US's hypocritical version. Unfortunately, the UN is also a bit of a pushover. I hope this is not due to its unhypocritical attitude. I also hope that they fully unite and become a formidable themselves.

After katrina people reverted into animals which led to madness....we should have put them out of their misery...mankind is nothing more than a engine self destruction...FEMA was a failure, it shows the government is incompetant, why didnt everyone help eachother out in New Orleans? Because they are nothing short of animals....distrusting, disgusting animals...they left eachother to die because they only cared about themsleves.

This rediculous typecast displays your ignorance well.

1) The madness after Katrina involved a very specific subset of New Orleans -- they were mostly the lowest class who could not evacuate, meaning that most of them were already in a state of desperation (take, for example, the crime-rate of the lower ninth ward).

2) The events and the mindset of those involved is not known very well to us. The media, for example, often referred to people taking the bare necessities of life as "looters". Not everyone was part of a gun-toting gang, and the authorities who quelled these gangs were not the altruistic godsent citizens that they were made out to be. First-hand reports show that many did form groups to help each other survive until they could again reach civilized land.

3) If mankind is an engine of self-destruction, then the progress of civilization sure is anomolous.

4) One instance of the failure of one department of the government does not prove the general incompetence of the government. It only proves the incompetence of FEMA with regard to this particular event and, conceivably, others like it.

And to me loss of life is little consequence when the world is already overpopulated...

Define "overpopulated". China is overpopulated. Parts of India are overpopulated. Is the world overpopulated? Not by a long-shot. Consider how many people live in such a small country as Japan, yet they don't seem to be having significant overpopulation problems.


The death of one man is a tragedy, The death of millions is a statistic. - Josef Stalin

You could learn alot from JS...

These deaths are nothing more to me than a statistic.

The world considers the millions of deaths he caused to be an atrocity. This sort of economical view of human life is in opposition to the individuality inherent in human consciousness. Spontaneity and freedom, along with the uniqueness of talent and skill among humans, not to mention the natural sense of self, are all considered to be of no value in a system that treats human life only statistically. Before you can make any such claims, you must first defend the world-view that you are assuming. And in defending this world-view, I will anticipate that you will never be able to show how any person or group of people can legitimately have authority if all individuality is ignored. This is the manner in which Marxism is self-defeating, by the way.

Edit: I just saw this:

edit: oh wow, man. nice attempt at a save. it's like he never said anything at all, except for the people in their right mind that quoted.

What do you mean?

Double Edit: I am sure that I have killed this thread. I have a knack for that. I don't know why I felt such a need to respond to Anubis. I hope it wasn't just that I thought he was an easy target. Oh well.

[Forever Finite]

well-said. that was an interesting read.

kind of silly for you to even bother, though. you are way out of his league and the contradictions of his arguments were self-evident.

[the Worms]

Thus my self-critique of my motives.

[MST3Kakalina]

this is a thread that needed to die. or at least have a dramatic turn of events WITHIN it.

i will respond to your comments about personality, especially your ideas on determinism and freewill etc, sometime. i really do find that intriguing but it is 1.30 in the morning and i'm tired and i've already spent too much time on teh intarwebs.

[exemplary citizen]

What do you mean?
Ah, disregard that. That was directed at him, not you, and is in error because I thought he edited out his part about the aircraft carrier. Turns out it was on the previous page.

[-MV- Anubis]

Hehehe.... You think I'll be so quick to back down....No...Im not really sure I can do that for you.

Interesting..so now I have Communists, Socialists, Liberals and COWARDS riding my asscrack for a left vs right gangbang... This will be fun...however I am very tired...I'll tackle your liberal minded arguement and depeice your lies bit by bit.

Soldiers dying in battle does not necessarily make them brave, so don't try to use tear-jerking language: that is the ploy of a person whose argument does not stand on its own ground.

The fact that you say when our soldiers aren't brave by fighting and dying for our country??!! THEY DIED FOR YOUR WORTHLESS ASS SO YOU CAN SIT HERE AND DISHONOR THEM!! BY TRASH TALKING THEIR MEMORY!!! You are a coward and a traitor in my book...but thats besides the point. The fact that I use "tear jerking" language because thats the truth to the situation...You just don't value people who die for your pathetic existance.

I think my arguement might not stand to someone so leftist and brainwashed such as yourself....no amount of reasoning and facts will change your mind...but I'll tango none the less.

North Korea and Vietnam were incompleted wars because the American people weren't convinced that it was right to take the side of the democratic country just because it is democratic. In other words, the equation of good with democracy was becoming insecure.


Thats because cowards like you stopped the job from being done - THEY WHERE FINNISHED...look what the N. Korean people have to live under for their predicament of living under a oppresive, tyranical regime such as the one currently inplace!!! They are starving...famine and devastation are abound....and you say its not just our problem? The World is our problem..its everyone's problem...but unfortunatley leftist cowards despite preaching about world peace...its only peace and happieness for them....sitting in their coffee shop while people get killed over nothing..while children starve because you don't want pay some attention to their miserable lives.

You are colder than I ever can be.

Its not our problem? Tell that to the homong people....tell that to the Iranians who we BETRAYED and walked out like cowards when they needed us the most...the south veitnamese...all these people....the fact that America backs down on any occassion is utter Bullshit in its fullest and thickest form.

America is the world's only superpower...our military if we let everything loose mind you, could not only take over the world...but hold the world at our heel....we don't use VX nerve gas on the enemy because it would be "Wrong" and "immoral"...but it would end the war in 1 day no more people would have to die....judging as the enemy is mainly comprimised of infantry and antiquated tanks and planes...its as simple as pushing a button.

But America...we can save the world...or destroy it...every other nation is worried about saving their own sorry asses...we still sit by while the genocide continues in sudan...did you forget about sudan? or rawanda???? Its more dynamic? Nothing is more dynamic than us + a carrier + A few Bombs + some marines = total liberation...no army short of russia and possbily china could stand up to us in a prolonged fight....

We have to lead by example...if the EU is only worried about itself..they are not a legitimate power afterall, we made them after WW2 anyways..who are they to question our power..our will...the Europeans in the first place fucked up Africa, and the middleeast...since the 1400s we have had this comming a long time...if we don't help all the people who can't help themsleves...we will only generate hate...and that will lead to more wars and more resentment and more 911s but you don't see the whole picture...no one ever does...and it costs the world more blood.


Believe it or not, but you do no have all the information. Situations are more dynamic than you think. The world cannot be reduced as simply as you have tried to reduce it. Consider actions that no president has ever taken. Why do you think that is so? Why do you think that what seems most obvious to you never happens? The probable cause is that it is entirely impossible, but you just don't know it yet.

I think it clearly can...our logistics capability, our airplane and shipping capacity..it could end in a day with the right kind of funding...we have plenty of "surplus" goods we buy from the industires to keep prices in check and standardized, and with that surplus we could immeditately deploy it and start ending hunger...if the rest of the world jumped in...and lent a hand there you go end world hunger/famine...

The reason we don't use chemcial weapons is...#1 we don't need to, #2 we keep the good and shiny image instead of stooping to chemcial weapons because it would make us as bad as the people we are usurping...however it is very smart in a military sense to use it because of the amount of people we'd kill without losing our own troops. WW1 is a good example..or IRAQI dictator Saddam Hussein's little Sarin/VX attack on the kurds and severe use during the Iran/Iraq war...5000men, women and children dead in 30 minutes...its that fast...want me to post some pictures? you can see the death from the screen rather than real life?


Do you not understand the moral dilemma that this presents? Can we be sure that such a thing is not an atrocity? Will it really bring the greater good? Will it solve the fundamental problem presented by drug trade? I am not sure about the first questions, but I am sure that the answer to the last question is "no," because drug trade is proportional to demand for drugs. Even if you killed those currently trading, the business would build back up, but more subtly and less susceptibly than before. You will have made things worse.

Sure..all things will rebuild..you won't make it worse by cutting the supply...you'll make it better...then when they are rebuilt...you bomb them out again...Then again the CIA was using evergreen to transport coccaine so well, I doubt it would ever be addressed.

But when they are done rebuilding...you kill whoever is in charge and demolish it again.

But yes, meth...oh meth...so many glassheads...why not just shoot them where you find them...they are trash...filth to be washed away by lead...they are nothing but the bane of society...no one will miss the weakminded fools willing to use drugs...they have killed themselves...give them a merciful end.

a .25 bullet and a gun is cheaper than a lifetime sentence maintaining garbage.


You're a fool on top of being an asshole. Everyone here is not a democrat. There are plenty of socialists here; besides, the word "democrat" no longer means what it used to. No one believes in governmental forms in their purity anymore. Furthermore, a position of democracy on matters democratic is not in any way problematic. In refering to Leninist Marxism, you take the argument out of its context: America is not Marxist, it is democratic, and the concerns of Soviet Russia have no effect on present-day America.

Lastly, your arguments don't even really take a true stand except a negative one. You don't have a position except to be a critic, and vacuous critics are the most destructive leeches on society. If you are going to destroy the status quo, you first need an alternative

And the phrase "truth as I see it" makes no sense. That just means that you are giving an opinion, which is not truth.

Learn argumentative tactics before you try to start an argument.

The Truth as I see it...well, it does...I see the truth...I see it...plenty of people see it...its just the blind party players that don't.

Im a critic alright...a critic of humanity and its conduct towards itself...I wasnt reffering to marxisim..thats the "true form of democracy" but then again it was only a ideal...we all know what the true communisim is...Stalinisim...so productive yet so coslty to the people...

I really dont care, because no matter what I say, it will just lead to wasted time on you and your hippie/marxist friends. The Media forms the minds of the weak...and that is what leads all the weakminded people away from war...

I don't reply for a day and you think youve acheived victory?! YAY!!! WOO HOO!! YEAH WE BEAT THE EVIL IMPERIALIST!!!ANOTHER ONE FOR COMMUNISIM!

You thought this was dead? I think im just getting riled up.

[KLEIN]

The fact that you say when our soldiers aren't brave by fighting and dying for our country??!! THEY DIED FOR YOUR WORTHLESS ASS SO YOU CAN SIT HERE AND DISHONOR THEM!! BY TRASH TALKING THEIR MEMORY!!!
...
I think it clearly can...our logistics capability, our airplane and shipping capacity..it could end in a day with the right kind of funding...we have plenty of "surplus" goods we buy from the industires to keep prices in check and standardized, and with that surplus we could immeditately deploy it and start ending hunger...if the rest of the world jumped in...and lent a hand there you go end world hunger/famine...
...
no one will miss the weakminded fools willing to use drugs...they have killed themselves...give them a merciful end.


Yikes. Logical fallacies everywhere. Straw man much?

Soldiers never die to "save the country" or "save democracy" That is justification after the fact. Soldiers are killed by enemy soldiers. War is destruction. It is sometimes morally ambiguous destruction, but never good.

Sources please. It is possible for us to completely destroy iraq, but it is impossible for us to destroy "terrorism", no matter how much we may want to, and no matter how much money we put into it. We do not have the resources to win this war, because to get the resources, we will lose the willpower. THIS IS INEVITABLE. There is no way that we can convert enough of our non-military resources to "win" the iraq war. Also: Osama bin ladin?

As for your drug statements, you're obviously not seeing the reality of the situation. Your sweeping generalizations have no basis in fact.

[exemplary citizen]

Interesting..so now I have Communists, Socialists, Liberals and COWARDS riding my asscrack for a left vs right gangbang...
AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OHshit. That's a good one.

Seriously, though. Namecalling is the first way to get your argument totally dismissed in any kind of serious discussion. Generally not considered a good move unless you wanna get laughed out of the room.

Sorry you're pissed that nobody here wants to buy your Xbox and all, but I'd suggest you tone it down a bit, because now you're just coming off like a frothing-at-the -mouth Charlie Manson style asshole.

[-MV- Anubis]

Eh Regardless...Im not pissed at all about this or the xbox...I just don't really care and see how they are allowed to call me a asshole while im not allowed to call them knobslobbing liberal pansies...but thats off the subject.

But I had to say that, it was funny...

Oh well Im done with this topic as no matter what I say will always fall on deaf ears at least here...I have a more balanced forum for this type of shit...if you care to discuss it further.

[KLEIN]

A bit immature. To insult people and then claim to leave. Which is stupid, since we all know you will return to read the replies. Maybe you will not reply, but it is a certainty that you will read the thread again.

That's point one. Point two is that no one called you an asshole. The closest thing was ami saying that you were coming off as an asshole. No one is insulting anyone personally, except for you, of course.

[strawberry kiss]

eh heh

[KLEIN]

Now now. That's called "Feeding the fire".

[the Worms]

-MV- Anubis, you haven't responded to any of my arguments. For example:

Nothing is more dynamic than us + a carrier + A few Bombs + some marines = total liberation...no army short of russia and possbily china could stand up to us in a prolonged fight

This only proves that you don't understand what the word "dynamic" means. It means that the causes for a state of affairs are muliple, not singular. You statement is the exact opposite: power causes liberation. Besides, you are years behind. Russia is weak.

And Stalinism is Leninist Marxism. Doesn't matter anyway, since Lenin, Marx and Stalin were all too simple-minded to come up with a coherent governmental form.

In short, I'll respond to you when you respond to me, Anubis.

[strawberry kiss]

Now now. That's called "Feeding the fire".

or completely harmless. I'm too cute. :)

[MST3Kakalina]

you know what asshole? fine. if you're going to drop that much troll bait, it's obvious you want SOMEONE to bite. bring it on, douchebag.

NOTE: any historical references i make i take from my AP Euro textbook, "A History of the Modern World," 6th edition (or maybe 9th, i can't quite remember), by R. R. Palmer and J. Colton unless otherwise noted.

Hehehe.... You think I'll be so quick to back down....No...Im not really sure I can do that for you.

Interesting..so now I have Communists, Socialists, Liberals and COWARDS riding my asscrack for a left vs right gangbang... This will be fun...however I am very tired...I'll tackle your liberal minded arguement and depeice your lies bit by bit.

the label game is irrelevant to debate. it only shows that your arguments are weak and need to be supported by flinging insults around. knock this shit off. fun fact: depiece isn't even a word. did you mean dismantle?



The fact that you say when our soldiers aren't brave by fighting and dying for our country??!! THEY DIED FOR YOUR WORTHLESS ASS SO YOU CAN SIT HERE AND DISHONOR THEM!! BY TRASH TALKING THEIR MEMORY!!! You are a coward and a traitor in my book...but thats besides the point. The fact that I use "tear jerking" language because thats the truth to the situation...You just don't value people who die for your pathetic existance.

dying in war isn't brave, it's inevitable. not to mention a LOT of the people who recently enlisted and are in Iraq did so because the government offers you COLLEGE MONEY to join. they weren't expecting to fight, at least a goodly portion. they were trying to get a leg up on their education. again, you're not going to get very far in a debate/discussion by calling your opponent worthless and pathetic. it just makes you look like a tool who can't back up his arguments with reasoning. i echo Klein's earlier post.

I think my arguement might not stand to someone so leftist and brainwashed such as yourself....no amount of reasoning and facts will change your mind...but I'll tango none the less.

more namecalling bullshit. "we are not amused."



Thats because cowards like you stopped the job from being done - THEY WHERE FINNISHED...look what the N. Korean people have to live under for their predicament of living under a oppresive, tyranical regime such as the one currently inplace!!! They are starving...famine and devastation are abound....and you say its not just our problem? The World is our problem..its everyone's problem...but unfortunatley leftist cowards despite preaching about world peace...its only peace and happieness for them....sitting in their coffee shop while people get killed over nothing..while children starve because you don't want pay some attention to their miserable lives.

You are colder than I ever can be.


Its not our problem? Tell that to the homong people....tell that to the Iranians who we BETRAYED and walked out like cowards when they needed us the most...the south veitnamese...all these people....the fact that America backs down on any occassion is utter Bullshit in its fullest and thickest form.

America is the world's only superpower...our military if we let everything loose mind you, could not only take over the world...but hold the world at our heel....we don't use VX nerve gas on the enemy because it would be "Wrong" and "immoral"...but it would end the war in 1 day no more people would have to die....judging as the enemy is mainly comprimised of infantry and antiquated tanks and planes...its as simple as pushing a button.


i will be the first to admit that my extremely modern history (as in, 1960s to present) is weak, so i have no responses to Korea. i will do some reading on that and get back to you on that.

do you not understand that WOLRD DOMINATION NEVER WORKS? never. Alexander the Great failed. Rome fell. Napoleon failed. Hitler failed. you can have the strongest army in the world, but the fact is complete world domination is way too huge of a goal to ever be feasible or desirable. war drains economies, supplies, morale...it's just not worth it.

But America...we can save the world...or destroy it...every other nation is worried about saving their own sorry asses...we still sit by while the genocide continues in sudan...did you forget about sudan? or rawanda???? Its more dynamic? Nothing is more dynamic than us + a carrier + A few Bombs + some marines = total liberation...no army short of russia and possbily china could stand up to us in a prolonged fight....

<i>America, fuck yeah! Come to save the motherfucking day yeah!</i>

do you know what happens when you liberate a people with no educated middle class and try to instill democracy? chaos.

We have to lead by example...if the EU is only worried about itself..they are not a legitimate power afterall, we made them after WW2 anyways..who are they to question our power..our will...the Europeans in the first place fucked up Africa, and the middleeast...since the 1400s we have had this comming a long time...if we don't help all the people who can't help themsleves...we will only generate hate...and that will lead to more wars and more resentment and more 911s but you don't see the whole picture...no one ever does...and it costs the world more blood.

are you talking about the European Coal and Steel Community? because that isn't the same thing as the EU. the EU took it over a few years ago, but to begin with, it was a different entity. and the ECSC was founded by France, West Germany, Italy, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. if i'm remembering my history correctly, the 1951 Treaty of Paris had little to nothing do with America. (most of this taken from Wikipedia.)

and what if we DO help all the people who can't help themselves? we get our thumbs in too many pies and can't do a good job ANYWHERE; we get criticized for incompetence and interference; we spend resources on others instead of America.

your arguments oscillate between "America needs to preserve itself!" and "America needs to be the world police!" it's either one or the other; having both is impossible.




I think it clearly can...our logistics capability, our airplane and shipping capacity..it could end in a day with the right kind of funding...we have plenty of "surplus" goods we buy from the industires to keep prices in check and standardized, and with that surplus we could immeditately deploy it and start ending hunger...if the rest of the world jumped in...and lent a hand there you go end world hunger/famine...

sources plzkthnxbai.

The reason we don't use chemcial weapons is...#1 we don't need to, #2 we keep the good and shiny image instead of stooping to chemcial weapons because it would make us as bad as the people we are usurping...however it is very smart in a military sense to use it because of the amount of people we'd kill without losing our own troops. WW1 is a good example..or IRAQI dictator Saddam Hussein's little Sarin/VX attack on the kurds and severe use during the Iran/Iraq war...5000men, women and children dead in 30 minutes...its that fast...want me to post some pictures? you can see the death from the screen rather than real life?

you're saying we don't need, but then you're saying we should...?



Sure..all things will rebuild..you won't make it worse by cutting the supply...you'll make it better...then when they are rebuilt...you bomb them out again...Then again the CIA was using evergreen to transport coccaine so well, I doubt it would ever be addressed.

But when they are done rebuilding...you kill whoever is in charge and demolish it again.

so keep up a vicious cycle of wasting money on a useless war on drugs? wow, that sounds like a great solution.

But yes, meth...oh meth...so many glassheads...why not just shoot them where you find them...they are trash...filth to be washed away by lead...they are nothing but the bane of society...no one will miss the weakminded fools willing to use drugs...they have killed themselves...give them a merciful end.

a .25 bullet and a gun is cheaper than a lifetime sentence maintaining garbage.

who the FUCK are you to judge what someone's life is worth? i can't even respond to this, my head is spinning so badly. ugh.



The Truth as I see it...well, it does...I see the truth...I see it...plenty of people see it...its just the blind party players that don't.

oh? so you have the grand answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything? please, share! oh, you mean the "truth" is that we should go around wasting people who we consider useless drains on society?

Im a critic alright...a critic of humanity and its conduct towards itself...I wasnt reffering to marxisim..thats the "true form of democracy" but then again it was only a ideal...we all know what the true communisim is...Stalinisim...so productive yet so coslty to the people...

Stalin's communism wasn't really all that productive. look at how many Five Year Plans he went through. the only boon he brought to the Soviet Union was electricity and literacy.

I really dont care, because no matter what I say, it will just lead to wasted time on you and your hippie/marxist friends. The Media forms the minds of the weak...and that is what leads all the weakminded people away from war...

how can the media, which constantly sensationalizes and glorifies the war and the soldiers and the administration, lead people AWAY from the war?



okay, now here's the bingo bonus round. can you define these terms? or do you just throw them around for shits and giggles?

Socialism
Communism
Liberal
Coward

[Linzoy]

Anubis you can't say that everything you say will fall on deaf ears as an excuse for not getting anyone to agree with you about anything, because you can't prove it. If I said right now that I read nothing but the wall street journal, would you suddenly start making more articulate arguments? Why did you even reply if you knew right away that the only responses would be from brainwashed hippies? You also said you love getting responses out of people, if that's true there's no reason to leave except out of fear. Or respect for other people's ideas, I think that's less likely though. In the future I think you should remember that you're not in the position to call people who don't like the idea of dying in war cowards when you can't even finish an argument on the internet.

[KLEIN]

Uh oh. Someone's a long way from the kiddy pool.

[-MV- Anubis]

I said I was done.

Arguing on the internet is worthless if we where in person I'd devote a whole day to talk to you....I know I will lose here and now because Im outflanked on supporters here due to the demographics that make up this forum...regardless of the points or the quality of my argument...I will lose because everyone here has their mind made up already going into this.

You want to take this off the forum..and on the spot...why don't you AIM me...its right there...and we can come to a place where we can discuss this amongst a very much more balanced audience...because as of right now its myself..vs the forum.

[the Worms]

Anubis, the appropriate forum for these sorts of debates is in public, and preferably where you have no support. If you are given criticism, you have more chance of being able to discover whether your perspective is feasible or not. If you have no criticism (i.e. if you are among supporters) then you are doing no more than building castles in the sky, which will be shot down at the first presentation, just like you saw here. If you think your views are worth something, then stand them up in front of the firing range and see if they stay alive. If you don't like criticism, then you only want people to agree with you, which is no way to argue.

[KLEIN]

And besides, it's hardly "a forum". More like three or four people. And we're not even in total agreement with our views. But when you present us with so much post to disagree with, this is what you get. Taking it on AIM takes it away from the eyes of the people watching, and engaging in this discussion. It's also a much less civilized form of interaction.

I know I've disagreed about something with all these people here. The only thing holding me back is the fact that I don't have the patience to retort properly when someone double posts to the character limit.

It's like a half hour job responding to one of your posts, worms.

[MST3Kakalina]

but it's a half hour well spent.

weak exit, Anubis. if the proofs and facts you use to back up your views are so self-evident or whatever, then you should at least be able to provide them as you leave. (ie, "here's what i'm using to support my arguments, i'm going to provide them even if i think you refuse to see the truth of it.") so far, you have done nothing but make wild speculations about America's ability to kickass and chew bubblegum (without sources about our military strength as it compares to the rest of the world) and the ocassional allusion to some historical incident without going into specifics.

and yeah, it's pretty much just worms and Ami at this point, with my ocassional (and probably insubstantial) input. that is not the "whole forum," stop playing the conservative paranoia game.

[implode]

and yeah, it's pretty much just worms and Ami at this point, with my ocassional (and probably insubstantial) input. that is not the "whole forum," stop playing the conservative paranoia game. man, i know. i'm sorry i missed it. but for the sake of hearing it from the perspective of somebody he hasn't already typecast as a democrat, i'll echo this particular sentiment, because i feel it's a very important point to make:

I know I will lose here and now because Im outflanked on supporters here due to the demographics that make up this forum...regardless of the points or the quality of my argument... this is absolute nonsense. this is not a war, and this is not a situation where supporters and manpower have any effect on the eventual outcome. this is a discussion. although you assume (and this may very well say something about you) that people refuse to take your arguments into consideration because they don't correspond with your own, i know these people well enough to vouch for the fact that if they find legicitimacy in anything you say, they will consider it and respond in turn. and perhaps even AGREE with you. the fact that you are being continually responded to with criticism only goes to show that you aren't presenting strong enough evidence to convince anyone that you are correct. so drop the act. you can either continue discussing the topic with a well thought-out dissent, or you can bail because you don't have your allies around to do the thinking for you. there <i>are</i> no other options.

oh, one more thing, i suppose, since things like this bother me:

But yes, meth...oh meth...so many glassheads...why not just shoot them where you find them...they are trash...filth to be washed away by lead...they are nothing but the bane of society...no one will miss the weakminded fools willing to use drugs...they have killed themselves...give them a merciful end. i only hope that someone in your family both has the misfortune to be battling an addiction right now AND happens to read this, because it'll surely let them know which member of the family they can stop bothering to stop caring about during the situations where you come to appreciate your family and loved ones. even "weakminded fools" care about you, buddy, and your comments have illustrated that your prior argument "you are more cold than i could ever be." is more ridiculous than the caption coming out of toucan sam's animated mouth on the back of the froot loops box. you think on a global scale when it comes to such things that you consider "saving the world" (freeing people from opressive tyrants, famines, etc.) and yet you think on an individual scale when it comes to drug users, a vast majority of which you would be SAVING in all your tyrant-disposing famine-relieving efforts. you can't care about a person in one breath and shit on them in the next. you can't fucking care about people when it's politically handy for you to do so and then advocate a "lead-washing" when it isn't. that's not what humanitarianism efforts are about.

you use people as pawns for each individual agenda, and it's fucking <i>disgusting.</i> there is not a clean slate every time.

[Forever Finite]

it's crack cocaine, isn't it cory.

i knew it.

[implode]

yeah. i saved you a rock, if you aren't doing anything after class tomorrow?

...

actually, make that in ten minutes.

[Forever Finite]

i met this guy on a bench at my college campus a few weeks ago and i was joking around cause he was talking real low, like we were dealing drugs or something. so i lower my voice and go "hey dude. how much for an 8 ball?"

and he's like "WOAH NOW. YOU'RE LIKE 15. GET AWAY FROM ME!"

so i can't get drugs cause i look like jail bait :(

[implode]

heh. or you could get all the drugs you wanted, for free, anytime, <i>because</i> you do. it's really just a matter of finding the right people who are wrong.

[KLEIN]

What will MV anubis think of us?

[Meat Load]

Probably something along the lines of "OMG LIBERAL NAZIS".

[Meats of Evil!]

I'm a anti-bush convert. This war is everything I feared it would be and worse. Billions of dollars expended, solgiers lives wasted, a perputually decimated country decimated yet again, and even more anti-american sentiment multiplied in the region. This crusade was supposed to get our mind off the poor presidential home policies and it's been ironically effective.

MoE!

[MST3Kakalina]

i'm comin', Wheezy!


:: amused by MoE!'s avatar ::

[Meats of Evil!]

Wheezy is George Jefferson's wife; get your 70s blackploitation sitcoms straight, girl.

MoE!

[MST3Kakalina]

:(

[Young Jeff Bridges]

blaxploitation

p.s. now it has fallen below 40. his approval rating is now 39%!

[Meats of Evil!]

http://www.adam.belsky.com/rerun/rerunphoto.jpg
The late great Fred Berry has returned from the grave to merrily support our wealthy and intensely white president.

MoE!

[cyberen]

I'd say something debatable but this thread is doing fine, even if it's life has been artificially extended.

or IS IT doing fine?

[MST3Kakalina]

dun dun duuuuun!

[Meats of Evil!]

The approval rate for this thread is at an all time low. Maybe it's time to invade the Moosecon forum as hear they weapons of mass destruction and gourmet cinnamon rolls?

MoE!